I live in the PNW, but come from Croatia. When I went back after a long time away (about 7 years) and having grown up, I observed something with complete disbelief:
My friends from there, would go to their friends' ice cream parlour, grab some coffees and a beer at 8 PM. For the next four hours, they would do nothing but tell funny stories and laugh until they couldn't laugh any more. These guys literally spent 4 hours laughing together.
They did this the next day, and the next, and many more until I had to reluctantly go back to the airport and fly back to the PNW.
Nothing even remotely like this has happened since last going back. Every time I think back to it, it seems like some impossible other reality.
This is what I miss the most. I moved to the US 12 years ago, also from Croatia, and while I have friends here, the lifestyle there is just conducive to spending time hanging out with people.
It's really like a different reality.
Coffee before work? Sure thing. Another coffee after work? Absolutely. Drinks in the evening? Definitely.
The thought of not seeing your friends for a month or longer is just absurd over there. If you don't see them regularly they're not your friends. The whole culture is built around spending time with people, and I only realized that after I left.
I enjoy living in the US, but man, I do miss having such a social life.
Four rounds of beers for three people anywhere on the west coast is like $100 now. Even in Copenhagen you can find a tall Tuborg for $1.50. Very sad
Yeah I don't think any of them spent even so much as €8 on everything, mostly coffee, some ice cream, literally a beer and that's all they needed.
PNW is Pacific North West I take it?
At first I thought it might be some part of Papua New Guinea
It is Penge West railway station (PNW) in the London Borough of Bromley in South London.
Google gives first result as "Purdue University Northwest". But assume that's not what OP meant, or did they? Pacific North West is the second result.
This seems to be a very American thing - using acronyms that is American only but then that's what HN must be - mostly American in terms of members :)
HN loves their acronyms. They sometimes say it's because they were on mobile but I don't believe it.
I think acronyms (or initialisms) are a form of community enforcement. If using jargon to reinforce that people in the group understand.
Or maybe that’s my best interpretation. As it’s also just faster to type PNW than Pacific Northwest and someone who lives there must need to type it quite a bit.
But either way, HN is a community and many people value efficiency and, more specifically, code systems for efficient communication.
Community enforcing as in shibboleet? https://xkcd.com/806/
> I think acronyms (or initialisms) are a form of community enforcement
aka jargon or lingo meant to exclude outsiders. Not nice.
It’s ok to have groups of people with common interests that not everyone likes. It’s not about excluding people, it’s about including some people.
Would you complain if the backgammon club doesn’t play polo? Is that excluding polo players?
HN is extremely US-centric in general so it's hardly surprising that US acronyms are used without elaboration.
I have never heard of PNW and I live in the US. Also, this person is from Croatia.
Edit: I guess that doesn't disqualify this person from picking up US lingo, but thinking about it further, someone who didn't grow up in the US might be more likely to use regional abbreviations in general contexts.
Someone used MIL which from context must be mother in law.
Also phrases. "If I recall correctly", "In other words", and all eight different slightly different variations like AFAICT... like what.
(room full of programmers. apparently none of them using any high tech like abbreviation expanders)
My favorite is IANAL because of how ungodly it looks.
i too have witnessed this in many places outside the USA. seeing people of all ages, just talking for hours. whenever i’m in one of these situations, i feel like living in the USA has made me an unskilled conversationalist in comparison.
First time I saw "PNW"
It probably means Pacific Northwest.
Curiously there’s someone else in this same comment thread also using PNW without explaining the abbreviation.
It’s giving me Baader-Meinhof phenomenon vibes.
Anyway, for the benefit of non-Americans, the “PNW” is basically Seattle and Portland, and it’s mostly like California but with winters.
It’s the SF Bay Area to British Columbia, and every once in awhile, the PNW gets reminded about what its other names would be: I.e cascadia or ecotopia.
What even is to the north west of the pacific ocean, do they mean Korea/Japan?
As far as HN goes, it really just means near Seattle or Portland WA.
It goes even into Idahoe and into Vancouver, BC.
> to the north west of the pacific ocean
that's simply not what the phrase "pacific northwest" means. it's "the northwest" (of the U.S. in this case), modified by the word "pacific".
Western North America, bounded by the Pacific Ocean.
But doesn’t include California.
Yes it fking does. The Bay Area and coastal Northern California is practically identical to Portland climate wise. Check a map of the PNW, nor cal is usually included.
Crescent City is the only town in California that I would consider part of the Pacific Northwest with a Walmart. [1]
Which is to say the technical definition doesn’t conform with most people’s experience because relatively few people know of Crescent City.
[1] Eurika is in Humboldt County and Humboldt County is not the PNW, it is Humboldt County.
I never understood why people say SF is NorCal. It's only halfway up the coast. I know of Crescent City because I drove up 101 once, and we stopped there. We were amazed at the size of the redwoods around there. Each time we drove around a switchback our headlights illuminated another one which we would collectively gasp at. Later on we got a traffic ticket on our way to Grants Pass. It was worth it though, as Crater Lake was similarly impressive.
It's because there is no major city north of the larger SF area. It's weird though
Also because the micro-climate of the penninsula, SF proper, and a decent bit around the bay is almost identical to the rest of the PNW. The culture is also nearly identical.
No it fucking does not. No one refers to California as the PNW they refer to California as California.
Yes it fucking does, fuck you for being wrong you fuck. Fuck!
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> grab some coffees and a beer at 8 PM. For the next four hours,
I feel like very few people in America could afford this in the places the vast majority of the population lives, especially multiple days per week. Even a couple hours of hanging out at a commercial establishment seems like it would cost $20, and many are designed for higher turnover so that you aren’t sitting there for 4 hours while nursing a couple coffees.
Not only are land/rent costs high in the places central to where people can meet, but labor costs at 8PM to 12AM are high too.
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Stammtisch is closed society. The fact that the members do not close the doors behind them and sit in public should not let fool you. Never sit at the Stammtisch table (which is not always obviously recognizable) if you were not explicitly invited.
In essence it is not unlike a British club. Not much help against loneliness if you are not deeply integrated in the community already and therefore likely not very lonely to begin with.
The less romantic way to see it, is that it is a hundreds of years old customer loyalty program. Regulars get a guaranteed seat and other perks like artfully crafted beer kegs with their names.
As a German: you are exactly right. Sitting down at the Stammtisch is asking for trouble. It's reserved for the die hard locals - it's coming from Stammkundschaft which roughly translates to regulars. Still it's perfectly fine to sit next to it or somewhere else in the bar. Usually sitting directly at the bar is the place for newbies or foreigners and people are often willing to talk and interact. Sometimes the bar keeper is interested in having a conversation or someone ordering a few beer initiates a conversation and invites you to their table.
Unfortunately my experience (in eastern Germany, maybe it's not universal) you tend to meet lot's of broken and fucked up people in bars and very little normal ones. At least I seem to have a talent to attract assholes and fascists that tell me their world view after a few beer. But this depends on the bar and the area. It's not all happy happy live.
I think that very much depends on the Stammtisch. There are also welcoming ones and open ones. Some you might have to RSVP for, some you hear about from friends.
i live in southwest germany and that seems like a esst germany problem. here i can meet interesting people in bars. for sure drunk nuts but hey its a bar. i think the real german thing against loneliness is the Verein. you go there and share interests with people and usually u become friends witj them.
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Also a good place for under the table negotiations for state contracts but that is less spoken about :-)
I live in PNW right now, and man, oh man, I dearly miss even a watered down version of a "3rd place bar culture" of the east coast. Would be so awesome to have a designated place to just have a drink and chat with your neighbours. There are bunch of coffee shops, but most people are free in the evening. And getting just a tiny bit loose and shooting the shit is definitely more of a bar thing.
I know financially it would never make sense, but having a local pub with extremely cheap membership ($5/month) with discounts to the neighbourhood residents (maybe based on postal code on your ID?) would do wonders to me. Use that tiny bit of cash to host small events, advertise it as the meeting place for anyone who wants to come, be a bit strict against unruly people who makes others uncomfortable... I can only dream!
I was in Iran 5 years ago and the "3rd place" was the tea/coffee places full of men mostly talking and playing chest during the hotter part of the day. Women gathered at home on their huge sofas. At Friday/Saturday night (IIRC) all the cities families go out and gather in public parce for night picnics. It's a fantastic experience to have. People make music, kids plays together, and families talk to each other over the shoulder. There's many wrong things with that country but ho boy they know of to gather. People bring their huge carpets and some food/drinks. Sometime they're walking merchants or a small kiosk.
I now live in suburb of Paris, there's probably more muslims that in the average French city (but they're still a strict minority) but no coffee place neither an alcool one and definitely not collective picnics at night.
From may to October, you should go to the 'quai de seine', between the Seine and Jussieu/jardin des plantes. It's young, but you'll see families, a lot of people learning to danse and picnic. With the occasional rose/wine seller. Probably the Parisian place I hate the less, with 'Chez Amel' near Canal st Martin (La station is fine also but too snob for me).
I love quai de saine (Parisian for 10 years) but a too far for an improvised pique-nique from Gennevilliers!
Can’t find Chez Amel, is it Chez Adel? Looks like an unpretentious casual and cosy bar, exactly my type thanks!
I'd no idea chess was so big in Iran. Alireza a household name?
Canadian Iranian here , yes it’s a common name, even my dad was called “Ali” short for his full name “Alireza”.
Also I agree with everything parent said, we always go out, we even have trips with the 2-3 families and sometimes friends join as well.
Chess and Soccor are huge in Iran, you see kids running around in the street playing all the time and in the evening we have “parties” where people come to share food and then go out.
It’s very different from the West, I don’t even know what western nations would look like with that setup, it can get chaotic and there are many regulations that prevent these anyway like making noise outside after dark or kids being lowed to run in the streets with cars passing; not to mention the subtlies of not invading people’s personal spaces or coming off as a “creep” / annoying person here. In Iran no one cares and you just chat with anyone..
Really interesting stuff - also goes some way to explaining the absolutely massive gatherings you see on Iran on occassion.
As a probably permanent expat with kids, I've been looking for some sort of more social and family oriented culture to raise them, and stuff like that sounds amazing. If we could just pick and choose the parts that each culture excels at!
Though with Alireza I was referring to Alireza Firouzja - a top 10 chess player in the world who also ended up in France like the earlier poster.
Justine, you need to learn to think for yourself.
Who’s Justine? Do I miss a reference?
I feel this so strongly. same story as you, and the postal code idea is brilliant.
I've traveled to the Northeast US a fair bit and am so surprised at how many drinking establishments those towns can support (or not, if the bars are in decline).
Take Manayunk, a town that got amalgamated into present day Philadelphia. It's on a commuter rail line that leads to Center City. A pretty little town with humble homes on small roads nearby. The name of the town means "the place to drink" in the Lenape language. You couldn't design a more idyllic small-town so close to a heavily urbanized area, in my opinion. But I digress.
While walking around with a tomato pie I was trying to finish before taking the train downtown, I counted about 12 bars full of who looked to be regulars, all on a weeknight. laughs a plenty, no banging club music. just the sound of life from townsfolk who probably go back a few generations at least.
in contrast, the PNW has always had transient worker populations, but even homeless people here often exude friendliness and a willingness to talk to strangers. it may be because they rely more on networks of goodwill than those with salaries and lease agreements. it may be because their living quarters are closer together, whether in the shelter or on the street. whatever the reason, there is a noticable dearth of that human connection with my life in the PNW, and it's such a recurring point of conversation that the horse has now been beaten to a pulp.
the way you long for the pub culture of the Northeast US is all too familiar to me. it's my Disneyland, because it's basically a fantasy when our cities are designed the way they are.
Glad to hear someone else shares these feelings! I've met very kind and amazing people in the area, yet there is just nothing that brings people together. You'll hear from the people in local facebook groups about some small gatherings, but it's just still all "planned". It doesn't replace that "ah, i'm done with work, i'll quickly grab a drink and see who's around!" chats.
I've had incredible nights through just going to the same bar a couple of times during my travels, and people all around the world made me feel welcome. Yet here? No such thing, yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere.
Seeing the place where you have lived for years and decades, and the people who you met a million times, with the eyes and openness of a traveler, would be such a gift. I wonder if it could be practiced somehow.
> yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere
But how hard it is to just tell a person you vaguely know (like neighbors or people who you know from work or venues) "I feel a bit lonely, wanna do something?".. we always have to have a "better" reason than just that. I wonder how many people chat with people they bump into, and then both go home lonely wishing they had a "good reason" to hang out with that other person, like in some weird ass prisoner's dilemma where the punishment is losing face. Probably a lot. But we hear so much about how people are more lonely and isolated, it shouldn't be that embarrassing admit being to be one of those who aren't quite content with their social connections.
If in doubt, I'd suggest finding something to volunteer or help out with. You never have to justify helping out with something where help is needed -- that is, nobody is going to ask if you're not really just there because you're lonely -- and you tend to run into social people. And even when it doesn't spark a friendship it's usually time well spent, and in the rare cases where it's not, just don't go to that particular thing again.
One issue is that the "local pub" is less local, since building places like that (or even cafes) in the neighbourhoods where people live is illegal. I loved having a corner pub when I lived in Dublin.
Though regarding membership - maybe check out an Elks club?
I live in one of the densest neighbourhoods in NA, and I definitely agree with you how it's mostly illegal to open a pub in extremely residential zone. That being said, there are like 10 bars I can think of that's around me. But none cater for that "local pub" atmosphere.
What's Elks club? My googling only led me to something in New Westminster, if that's the thing you're talking about.
The Elks are a fraternal organization for (usually older) Americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_and_Protective_Orde...
They have "lodges" (clubs) which I would assume are quite variable but many have bars in them. They do a lot of community-service work.
I went to an event in an Elks Lodge a long time ago, I think it was Thanksgiving. My grandfather was an Elk. (Yes, that sounds funny if you don't know who the Elks are.) I didn't see the bar, if there was one, but the atmosphere was really nice: older folks but very outgoing and friendly.
Membership criteria, from their home page:
* Be at least 21 years of age.
* Believe in God.
* Be a citizen of the United States who pledges allegiance to and salutes the American Flag.
* Be of good character.
If you meet these criteria I think it'd be worth looking into a membership, even if just as a hedge against loneliness in case things don't work out as you planned.
Oh, and I see the Canadians have their own version, with a more modern website:
Ah, I see. Thank you, sounds interesting! Unfortunately, I don’t think I would be welcome in such clubs. But hope they’re doing well, and I’m sure the members are great people as well!
Yeah, I’ve never been, I just remembered reading about these places where you had a monthly dues to a social club and just hung out. It sounds fun except for the baggage.
The citizenship requirement is asinine (immigrants are great at conversation, almost by necessity!) and the god thing would be off putting….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_and_Protective_Orde...
He means the elks fraternal club or other similar clubs. There used to be a bunch of these clubs for getting together often with secret or fake mystic symbols like the Freemasons. Many of them started charities and volunteer activities but are also a club you can identify with (like a sports fandom) and often drink with other members at their lodge building.
And since its a national organization with local chapters I think you could probably join a diferent chapter after you move. Sure your friends won't be there but being at the same meetings/drinking together maybe volunteering together and having the fraternal order as part of your shared identity might make making new friends easier.
Of course since most of these orgs are old and were started by old white dudes many used to be male only and ban minorities (although most probably haven't in decades that history may dissuade many). Also many are dying out/largely full of seniors although I found this article which claims some recent growth due to people seeking third places and friendship. Also note I have never been a member of any of these and may have gotten some things wrong.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/new-world-orders
> But it’s also part of a national phenomenon: For the first time in 35 years, the Elks are growing. Average member age is down from 69 to 61. Membership is exploding in San Francisco, the Florida Keys, North Carolina, and dozens of other areas, including the bedroom communities of New Jersey, where Eli Manning was just voted to membership. Each of those lodges has a story of where that growth is coming from, yet the impulse remains constant: seeking connections, with people who are not necessarily like them, in dusty old buildings with $2 drafts and animal heads hanging over the doorway.
... > The Elks and similar fraternal organizations were part of a broad trend of “joining” and civic engagement that started in the 1880s, dropped off during the Great Depression, and surged following World War II. “Fraternal organizations,” writes historian Robert D. Putnam, “represented a reaction against the individualism and anomie of this era of rapid social change, asylum from a disordered and uncertain world.” Many provided “material benefits” like life and health insurance, as well as “social solidarity and ritual”; by 1910, more than one-third of adult males over the age of 19 were a member of at least one.
>Some, like the Jaycees, the Rotary Club, the Kiwanis, and the Lions, were more explicitly business-oriented; others, like the Odd Fellows, were more invested in providing care for their members; while the Black Elks, Black Moose, and dozens of others developed similarly robust organizations segregated from their white counterparts. The Elks were officially desegregated in 1973, but black members were routinely denied membership through the 1980s. Today, most lodges have diversified: While many, especially in rural areas, remain largely white, there are dozens of clubs whose membership is almost entirely black; in Charlottesville, Virginia, the Elks Club has become “the only real place for black folks to go.”
...
> The specific lore of the early Elks has filled books, but the bare facts, as presented during a recent Ballard new member orientation, are easier: “Some actors wanted to drink on Sundays, which wasn’t allowed at the time, so they put together a private club so they could succeed at that. Gradually that group started doing more with charity, and a lot more with veterans, but it was pretty much a men’s organization.”
> The group voted to name itself the Elks, narrowly defeating the Buffaloes, and borrowed much of its ritual from the Freemasons, then one of the largest organizations in the country. By 1910, Elks done away with almost all of the ritual — including secret handshakes and passwords — and settled into the function they held for much of the 20th century: a group of (white) men, initiated only upon recommendation from another member of the lodge, who paid yearly dues, enjoyed lavish facilities built with those dues, and donated time and money to local, state, and national charities.
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Having a local place where people live is illegal? I knew it was a bit special abroad but that is wild.
Generally speaking single use zoning in North America combined with parking minimums make it illegal to open a cafe, pub, shop, etc where people live.
people who live there don't want a bar (which here, often means drunk, yelling, rowdy, drunk-driving, publicly-urinating people) going up right next door to their house/condo. Other example of zoning laws would be auto repair shops (15 broken-down oil-leaking cars parked down the street). each city can decide these things.
These small local bars are usually illegal in the US unless they’ve been grandfathered in. The solution probably isn’t some fancy new membership scheme, just literally allowing them to exist in the first place. At least, we should try that first.
could you tell me why? as a german with a pub in every little village i cant see the reason
In the US especially post WW2 we implemented a zoning system which mostly groups the same type of building (residential, commercial, industrial) together.
In a place with residential zoning you can't just build a pub without getting an exception to that zoning approved.
So many Americans living in residential suburban houses have to get in their car and drive 5-20 minutes to get to some sort of commercial center, strip mall, shopping area, etc. that has stores, bars, and restaurants.
There is starting to be a major pushback on this as people realize that having nice towns (not even necessarily cities) with dense mixed-use centers of walkable apartments, townhouses, shops, restaurants, bars, etc. is actually both pleasant and good for business. In the strict separate-zoning model you tend to get more chain establishments and fewer interesting local options because things are spread out and there isn't enough foot traffic in any given place to win over new business.
thanks this explains so much. was a bit stunned that all shoping possibilities are so far away from the homes
They're discussing relatively urban areas. As an American who has lived in the middle of nowhere, every little town still has a pub. I've been in many towns with nothing but a post office and a bar to servic the under 100 residents.
Because car manufacturer want people to drive so they created zoning laws accordingly.
Source?
I would bet it is simply an emergent phenomenon of individual interests coalescing. Everyone wants commercial establishments near them, but not next to them.
Same as having lots of space for yourself, but also living near everything.
see my previous comment in this thread (if you're asking why they are "illegal", really just forbidden by zoning laws)
It sounds like something simple enough for you to setup. You have the passion direct it locally and see what grows.
Problem is the funding. I can't really afford to risk at the bare minimum of $300K and try to grow it from there myself. Maybe one day, or if I find someone who shares the passion. If only there could be some weird AI angle to throw in to get some funding, am I right?!
The second you start serving alcohol, you start being liable for things people do after they leave your establishment. Or even in your establishment. Your personal assets are at stake, and at that point, it doesn’t make sense to run something as a charity.
I was chatting with a guy running a bakery/board game store. He was saying how hard the finances were (the store eventually folded), and he mentioned the price of alcohol insurance. The store didn't serve alcohol, so I asked why he had it. He said that (at least in Pennsylvania), if a visibly intoxicated customer left his store and got into an accident, he could be sued. Maybe not successfully, but it wouldn't necessarily be thrown out by the judge. It's why there are so many stores with BYOB around me: if they have to get insured anyways, might as well invite the business.
The US has an enormous problem with the costs of litigation gumming up society’s gears. From healthcare to police to even just having a neighbor’s kid get injured in your backyard.
Anyone that has an option to earn good W-2 income would need a huge carrot to incentivize them to forego that low liability lifestyle and instead opt to start their own business, especially one where you invite people into your premises.
Until you are making good money (and this can take 10+ years) and can afford lawyers, you are at the mercy of the legal system.
I don't understand any of what you guys say.
What is there to fund? You just have to advertise a bit a meetup in some social medias and choose a place.
During the actual event, you aren't the one serving alcohol, there is nothing to be liable with and people are free to order non alcohol drinks.
It is just random people meeting at a bar.
tokyioyoyo was writing about making a place with the goal of having people meet and hang out. A bar doesn’t necessarily have that goal, it may have a goal of meeting a certain amount of revenue, most easily accomplished by incentivizing turnover.
Yeah, I wouldn’t even enjoy running it as a charity, as that would be an enormous sacrifice. I wonder if someone did a cost analysis of Costco-style membership analysis for a bar.
I personally know people who avoid specific bars because specific patrons have been jerks, and they’re making others uncomfortable. Some sort of simple membership could keep them out.
We used to have some of these. Back when rents were much lower.
eg The Last Exit on Brooklyn (near Univ of Wash campus). Just show up. Very diverse clientele. All tables were open (no bogarting open seats). Cribbage, go, chess, boardgames, whatever. Mostly with strangers. There was also regular poetry slams, open-mic, music, whatever.
I've long wondered how to recreate such venues.
Places like Mox are great. https://www.moxboardinghouse.com/seattle/ I've been many times along with my son's crew (gamers, artists, slackers).
But the qwan is just a bit off.
Why?
Is it because we banned indoor smoking? People used to just hang out and smoke, taking in the vibe. (Gods, as a non-smoker, I loved cigs and espresso and cribbage and talking shit. Not that I'd ever want to allow indoor smoking again...)
Is it because places like Mox require merch sales to remain viable? Alcohol sales are way down, so venues need something.
Any way. As an old, if my local public library served espresso, I'd never leave. Our book club has tried to meet at libraries a few times, but it always sucks. Our libraries are definitely not "third places".
/ramble
> be a bit strict against unruly people who makes others uncomfortable...
That's the crux of the issue. Since the rise of individualism, everyone has a different definition of "fun", which means that everyone has different expectations, and it becomes impossible to organize anything that is actually fun for everyone. Case in point: why work parties are so dry? Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator.
A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.
> Since the rise of individualism, everyone has a different definition of "fun"
I don't think this is anything new. Back one or two centuries ago there were clubs and societies for people having common interests, social classes and behaviors.
> A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.
I think you overthink it. The one who organize is the one who decides. You define a place, people adapts or don't come. Simple as that.
In any group of friends or acquaintance, there are those that comes since the beginning, other who are always late, some who always leave early, some who are heavy smokers and spend all their time smoking outside, others who can't handle the smoke and stay inside and some who adapt and spend time in both area. Some people who always disappear for a while. In that group, some people barely spend time together. That is fine, you don't have to be the all of us together from start to finish.
As a guest I'm feeling less confortable when the host is organizing something specially for me: I'm coming to have time with you, probably talking. Eating, smoking or whatever is a nice plus if we happen to share the same interest and if we don't that's fine, I won't have a bad time if you didn't prepare my favorite meal. I'm not the birthday kid.
I understand some people fun is to organise for other folk's fun, that's a generous motivation. But sometimes just behaving/organizing the way you likes it yourself makes other more confortable. Just tell them what food you'll prepare, if smoking inside/window is allowed and at what time you'll be ready. If they're grown up they'll manage to have fun by themselves, they come to see you not for your food.
> Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator.
I know bartenders who have a customer list that they never serve for various reasons. It’s easier to implement it in a neighbourhood level, as there’s an implied “we’re a part of the same group, so try to behave” understanding.
> Case in point: why work parties are so dry?
I get what you’re saying, but my work parties have been nothing but dry (and definitely, very far from dry) up until my current job. I just changed a few months ago though, and until I relocate, can’t really experience what they have to offer.
Agreed about the party hosting part though. It’s pretty tough to get some of my friend circles to do something together for the same reason. We can usually muster up for our big traditions though, which I think can be done in a local level too.
> there’s an implied “we’re a part of the same group, so try to behave” understanding.
Ok but why would I go to places where I need to behave, if I can just drink at home instead, without needing to behave? I've been behaving the entire week already, give me a break.
A setup like that could transform the way people engage with their local community
Yeah, I’m on the younger side, compared to the old timers I’ve met at the bars. But from what I’ve gathered, nowadays, people want to choose their friends and curate their circles. There’s much less importance given to serendipity and just local connections. Some sort of easy activity (weekly grab-a-drink at a pub) would be great, but convincing people that it is a great way to spend time might be a challenging (but fun!) mission.
Was in London recently, and my friend dragged me to her watering hole on the first night… made me jealous instantly.
Old (American) geezer PoV - that sounds very similar to any number of fraternal and veterans organizations of a half-ish century ago. And not dissimilar to what many municipalities are trying to do with senior citizens' centers. And ...
Financially, the secret to the old fraternal and veterans halls was that they were built when it was (relatively) cheap & easy to build in America. And their membership was dedicated enough to pay for that, then do most of the work of running the place.
These days...a few such place and organizations persist. But mostly, relentless capitalism has optimized away American's willingness to undertake any activity which fails to enrich Wall Street.
A friend recently created a discord server to match board game players travelling on the same ICE train (German long distance trains). https://bahn.party
There's a bot that lets you search trains and then creates a channel for the one you select and you meet with others on the same train and play board games or just have a chat.
Feels apt to share in this thread.
I’m an American. I play soccer once a week with a mix of Americans and Immigrants. Recently I started meeting for coffee after with some of the guys. This was prompted by a Serbian, but in attendance regularly is a Hungarian, a Jamaican, and occasionally some Vietnamese guys. We call it the UN but more importantly, these guys know how to sit and talk. The regularity of it makes it more likely to continue.
It has done more for my mood in the past few months than anything else. Just sitting and talking and having coffee. As a group. Just men.
As a German: the answer is IMHO in the pub culture you can find in UK and Ireland.
A socially accepted central meeting place where people can go and talk to each other. Of course also to eat and drink.
It's the social glue there and has a very very old history there.
I was explaining this to younger friends over the weekend - before everyone had phones in their pockets, we would head to the pub. Every Friday and Saturday evening, same pub, same time. A bunch of us would be there, and the night would progress from there. If you couldn't make it, you didn't turn up, simple as.
If we were feeling sociable on a weeknight, we headed to the same pub. There'd usually be one or two others that felt the same, and they'd introduce us to others, and the circle spread.
Go to the pub more than 3 times over a couple of weeks and you'd start to be known as a regular, and introduced to the other regulars. Over time, those random introductions became the core of your social life.
Now, of course, we don't need to do this because we can tell the group chat which bar we're meeting at. I'm not sure it's an improvement.
There’s something to needing to actively sustain it I think.
agreed, but it became self-sustaining because we didn't have the option to do otherwise; getting hold of everyone to change the venue for next Friday was really painful, so we just stuck to going to the same place each week.
As a UK resident who's recently given up alcohol, the pub culture part is the thing I miss the most. The quick pseudo-answer is non-alcoholic drinks, but it creates a weird dynamic when most of the group gets slowly inebriated over the evening, and you sip lemonade
I've never drunk and find pubs awkward and generally un-fun. Some of that is I maybe want one small soft drink a day at most anyway, and I'm quickly just standing/sitting without a drink, worrying I've got nothing to say, and seeing no good reason to be there. 100% on me, and I only mention it as context to the below:
I've seen a lot of people drinking the modern zero/low alcohol beers (lucky saint maybe?) and it largely just works. They're happy, and get to engage feeling pretty much like normal. Obviously if the goal is to get drunk quickly then it sucks, but observationally you've got a fair few rounds before it appears to be a barrier.
I miss the pubs in the UK, but they’re nothing without your mates. In Germany, I have no way of making friends or meeting people, it’s a real struggle. Too broke to go out to Meetups, and at my age it’s hard anyway.
Search for "sozial treff <your city>". Call there and talk to someone. The churches are also good places to ask. German churches organize a lot of social events. If I interpret "at my age" correctly you mean that you are too old. Let me tell you, especially for older people there exists tons of stuff in your city.
Thanks for the tipp - I’ve been trying to volunteer at the refugee centre ON MY ROAD for months but my application is going nowhere. I’m not super old, just entered my sixth decade, but bogged down in parenting instead of socializing.
EDIT: Super Tipp, danke. Habe gleich zwei Treffpunkte in der Nähe gefunden und werde diese im neuen Jahr besuchen.
Isn't Germany big on clubs? Join a club around an activity you enjoy - or that interests you.
Only in the bigger cities and most crowds there are closed groups.
Music venues with smaller concerts are way better to get in touch with people.
We joined a boardgame group when we lived in Berlin. We made a couple of friends, which was great, but even without that it was a good social experience. And I don't speak German, so we had to only play people whose English was up to it, which was limiting (but not as much as you'd expect). If your German is acceptable then you'll do much better.
the nice thing about boardgames is that they also work for introverts. you don't have to be chatty or engage in conversation topics that you find boring. you can use the game as a proxy to interact with people and allow you to become comfortable with each other. more so if you are a cooperative and helpful player. if you are engaged in the game noone will notice if you haven't said a word all evening.
if language is an issue you can find a translation of the rules of most games online to help you out with learning a more complex game.
Join a church, and if thats not your jam, join a choir. Its making friends on easy mode.
>In Germany, I have no way of making friends or meeting people, it’s a real struggle
I used to hear this quite a bit from people who work here, as the article hints at we're a country of clubs and associations, most of them free. Be it chess, football, poetry slams, the church choir, the local CCC given that you're on HN, etc. Most unis will let you sit in for free as well. I also wouldn't worry about age. We're not really that age conscious, very few people I know care if they're around people twice their age.
People tend to bash their head in trying to make friends at work but it's probably the worst country to do this, we just work 9 to 5 and go home.
I’m in the middle of Hamburg but ironically in a completely dead spot with nothing going on nearby and surrounded by light industrial parks. I wouldn’t mind improving my guitar skills and finding a jam, even a ukulele jam, but Google searches went nowhere. I don’t have a job, and it’s not looking good either, plus I’m focusing on launching something in the UK, but doesn’t help with severe loneliness here. Thanks for the pointers, will do some more searching for these things.
Since Google has gone to shit, maybe you haven't found the following sites:
https://www.hamburgergitarrenforum.de/ https://gitarrehamburg.de/
The first one event mentions regular meetings but not whether they are still happening. I would suggest reaching out to the Vorstand and asking if they know where to look for a jam, they excplicitly write that they see themselves as a networking platform for guitarists in Hamburg.
And as a German I would like to echo what others said about clubs in germany: I have met half of my friendgroup and my long-term partner in a Verein. Nearly every person I know is or was involved in one. Its not always easy to find the right one for you, but I believe it is the most straightforward way to expand ones social circle in Germany.
Thanks for those, hadn’t found them, but I’ll get in touch to see if things are still running. Great tips.
Good tip on CCC too from previous poster, they’re not far from me, they’re near to stuff I know in Altona, I will grab a mask and head to an Open Chaos night. I passed my B1 earlier this year so my German sucks less than it used to but is still terrible.
This year has honestly speaking been terrible, but all I can try to do is either go back home or find some people to talk to here. You gotta work with what you’ve got.
Consider attending 38C3: https://events.ccc.de/congress/2024/infos/startpage.html
Edit: Looks like it's completely sold out. Maybe next year?
Dang, how did I not hear about this? I’m in a local Discord tech group and this hasn’t been mentioned at all!
Thanks for the intel, definitely one for next year!
I also live in Hamburg and yeah it’s extremely difficult to meet people here considering it’s such a huge city, especially if you live south of the Elbe
Yes, South seems to be South of the Ganges, where nothing happens and nobody goes.
For my part, I find the city tiny as I can cycle to the other side in less than forty minutes, which I love, it’s so fast to get around. I’ve been to a few non-tech meetups but they are short and fleeting and quite insubstantial. Still, here we are, send me an email/dm if you want to connect for a cup of tea somewhere equally inconvenient in the Mitte, like one of those Treffpunkts!
If you like biking, try Turf [1]
It's a swedish game where you take zones with GPS irl. There aren't many german turfers yet but the ones around seems very social. Chat in game and on Discord, starting to organize meetups too. The added benefit is everyone can see where you are and meet up for a chat just there :-)
Huh, thanks will check it out - it is like Strava but without the Lycra?
It is more like exploration, geocache without the cache. Orientering we call it here.
Lycra optional :)
Hey, you two! I'm also in Hamburg. I'm also up for a beverage. You can reach me at canolcer@hey.com. We can also meet up the three of us if we manage...
i used to live in hamburg, i would totally join up if i was there.
there recently was post about a site for hn readers to share their location to enable meetups: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42410582
quick advice, i would remove the email address from you post while you still can edit it, and instead point to your profile where you can remove or change the email address later if need be.
> quick advice, i would remove the email address from you post while you still can edit it, and instead point to your profile where you can remove or change the email address later if need be.
Too late, but it's fine. I have been posting my email address publicly for a while and not much spam.
> i used to live in hamburg, i would totally join up if i was there.
Cool!
> there recently was post about a site for hn readers to share their location to enable meetups: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42410582
Yes, I have seen that and added myself to that map. Also, I'm meeting up with somebody from there tomorrow, actually =P
Nice
I don't think Ireland has the pub culture you have in mind. Honestly not much to do besides pubs here, and unless you have an established friend group, good luck making one. Locals are in their own bubbles.
Irish people are quite famous for how not lonely they are, so much so that the tiny island only has 2 or 3 subreddits dedicated to making friends and meeting people.
I don't think that is really fair and not restricted to Ireland either. I have visited the Emerald Isle a couple of times, North and South, from the UK.
I found a culture that is definitely different in some ways but just as familiar in most ways. Just as I do in Wales and Scotland.
For example we all share a strange obsession with the weather. Obviously we don't really but the standard rules of chatting about the weather enables an easy start and disengagement from a social encounter. We also suffer from an inability to stop saying goodbye ...
Pub culture as a whole is changing massively. I remember when Ireland banned fags in pubs (a fag is a cigarette). I used to smoke and found it a bit odd having to go outside. Then the UK followed suit. With hindsight, I don't miss quite a lot of the "good old days" of smoke filled rooms that even a tabber's eyes would nearly be bleeding. Brown stained wooden chairs with plum or mustard upholstery and worryingly sticky floors and tables.
I remember chatting to a landlord of my local at the time around 1998. The boozer was called the Globe Trotters (Yeovil, Somerset, UK). It was formerly a cider house called the Globe and now its a modern effort called ... the Globe and Crown. The landlord described how he had to get rid of the "old boys" who would sit in the corner and quietly piss themselves whilst talking bollocks.
Anyway, I'm not sure what pub culture is these days. It probably died of COPD a few years ago.
Despite all that, I do think that the Stammtisch ideal is alive and well in our very odd corner of Western Europe. We just don't give it a name. Perhaps we should. The nearest thing I can think of is pub sports - darts, pool, snooker etc.
I've been playing pool badly for a team for a good 25 years now.
> I don't think Ireland has the pub culture you have in mind. Honestly not much to do besides pubs here, and unless you have an established friend group, good luck making one. Locals are in their own bubbles.
I've been to Ireland many times. So cannot really confirm this.
After a night in a pub I know everyone in the town. Or almost.
Knowing is different to having a close relationship or a friendship. Irish people are well known for that.
In Kolkata where I was born but didn't grow up, this is called "Adda" culture[1] at coffee houses. I guess in Germany they would call this Kaffeekränzchen. Super interesting how this pops up organically in most urban settings. Would love to join a new movement around this in my town.
[1]: https://www.telegraphindia.com/my-kolkata/places/from-colleg...
Every Friday night, a bunch of us friends (usually men) get together, and have dinner at some local joint.
We actually interact with each other at other times, during the week, but the Friday dinner is kind of special.
I'm fortunate to be involved in an organization that includes a great deal of interaction with others, but I know that the norm for men my age, is sitting on the recliner, remote in hand.
Had a small circle that did the same every Friday evening. But as time passes, members have gotten more commitments, and the whole thing got dispersed.
I'd like to believe that I was one of the more avid members, but waiting alone for up to hours for the next guy to pop up, made me quit too.
Last I heard, only two to three members are left, and its a somewhat odd lunch held around 3-4pm.
Switching from weekly to monthly helped revitalize a group I meet up with. Getting together every week was becoming too much for folks with kids and attending randomly resulted in sparse attendance. Consolidating on all meeting the same week of the month restored critical mass which made people want to attend more.
I think successful groups almost always have a core of devoted people who will show up on time, rain or shine, enough for the event to succeed. If you were alone for hours waiting for other people, that was a really bad sign IMO.
We’ve been doing this for over 20 years.
But the “glue” that keeps us together, is the organization we’re all members of.
Church?
I’m a Christian and have always been so thankful for the rich community and sense of shared values and mission I experience with my church.
No, Recovery fellowship. Similar.
Churches provide many of the same benefits. For most of my friends that attend churches, the congregation is more important to them, than the pastor.
Friday night is the most difficult time to have a meal. Sunday afternoon is the best.
Stammtisch might help a little but for me, loneliness comes from lack of a lover. It's not the sex, it's the support, hugs, caresses, pillow talk, companionship that, at least I, need.
I had a weekly drink up for 15yrs and seeing friends 3-4 times a week for dinner and activities. It was 100x better than not but not sufficient to cure the loneliness of not having a life companion.
Of course good relationship > single > bad relationship
This is what many people in relationships, especially many of those who have always had an easy time getting into relationships, don't get. How much their partner is a support for them and how much more exhausting it can be to live without a partner to support each other. Of course that is also a kind of work and effort needed, but each gives as they can and when they can and if that works out in sufficient amount, then the relationship has a good chance of surviving.
Worse still, bashing on "incels" is totally fine.
People bash on incels because they blame women for all the problems in their life.
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As a German I was really surprised that this isn’t something that’s done everywhere. Personally I’ve been running a Stammtisch for Japanese for 15 years now, and taken part in 2 others for over 10.
It’s really not complicated. You ask the bar owner whether you can have a table at the bar every month, and how many people will come, that’s it. If you do it Monday-Thursday it’s better for them, because the bar will be emptier and they will know how many waiters to call in. They might even make drinks cheaper for you.
There are different meanings to Stammtisch. What you describe is more like a regular meetup around a special topic. Those are not marked as Stammtisch in the pub, altough attendees call it like that.
The other meaning is high alcohol consumption and extreme populist opinions. That's the Stammtisch of the pub.
I don’t think that was ever true. A Stammtisch is not primarily about drinking, with something more refined on the side as an excuse. But I can imagine raging alcoholics like to believe that.
A type of third place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
And wouldn't it be nice if there were more third places that weren't centered around alcohol consumption.
It certainly depends on location.
In the U.S. the name Stammtisch has often been co-opted by German-speaking clubs. I myself helped usher the Philadelphia one through a low point 20 years ago. They are much bigger now, with at least 4 weekly meeting around the Philly area (I have since moved out of the area):
I forgot to mention the Madison one that I was in before then: https://www.facebook.com/groups/252293088142844/
I wonder if I suffer from loneliness. I see my wife, MIL (she lives in my garage apartment) and two boys everyday but that’s about it since I work from home. Last week and lady came by and did a medical evaluation for my life insurance renewal. We chatted for a few min while she drew my blood and filled out paperwork. It was the highlight of my week and just talking to her was an amazing experience. I think I need to get out more haha
Similar thing in Belgium: "stamcafé" or "stamkroeg" in Dutch. It just refers to your local pub which you (and maybe some of your friends) frequent often enough to be a regular. Not to a table. Mine isn't even local, I regularly travel 60km by train for beers and good company in a nice atmosphere.
The flag thing sounds like a very German thing to do. Maybe that's why German tourists are notorious for using towels to try to reserve chairs in tourist resorts the world over? Like draping a flag over a Stammstuhl.
> Maybe that's why German tourists are notorious for using towels to try to reserve chairs in tourist resorts the world over?
Perhaps the Germans started it, but they are by no means the only nation doing this anymore. They may not even be leading in this discipline anymore. Over 20 years ago, I already observed English people reserving the best poolside loungers with towels before sunrise.
We always liked to organize in fraternities and "Vereine" (club) since the Kaiserreich. Everyone and their mom had a specialised frat or club for identity and community. And they had flags, colors, songs, customs and all of that to show belonging. You have things like the Wandervogelbewegung (think boy scouts), Pfadfinder (actual boy scouts), Bündische Jugend, Schützenvereine and things like that. I really mean there was a (is) community for everyone, complete with uniforms and stuff.
Typing this I get a bit sad that these communities are missing nowadays and didn't really made it into modern life. Hitler used a lot of them for his purposes and after WWII it was just old people is what I think about them nowadays. It's too conservative and traditional for me.
Got a bit off track with the comment, but I was replying to the flag thingy. As a German it makes total sense.
Stamcafé sounds like such a cozy tradition
I meet with a few men every 6 or 7 weeks in a similar fashion to a Stammtisch. We talk about nothing and everything. It’s more about creating the space for things to come out than any individual meeting.
I’m gradually finding that my mission in life may be to fight the widespread atomization we all feel by any means necessary.
I don’t know if you can say that you are fighting a societal malaise by meeting with the same men every so often.
>my mission in life may be to
Hey! I'm in the same boat, shoot me an email!
In German there's also the word Stammtischparole (barroom cliché). It basically describes views and ideas so populist that no one dared to say outside the Stammtisch. Until recently…
There's a fun German pub here in Portland, OR called Stammtisch.
And their Münchner beer list on tap is unmatched anywhere in the city. Even Proust or Otto and Anita’s. Love that place.
Sounds great! Are you (or anyone reading this) interested in doing a Stammtisch at Stammtisch?
> It seemed like a typical bar hang — until one of the guys planted a little flag on the table: an insignia for their group. That seemed a bit odd: Why do these pals have a flag? Turns out, this was no random meetup for a pint. It was a Stammtisch.
"It was a Stammtisch" doesn't explain why there was a flag placed on the table other than that maybe it's common for a flag to be part of this kind of gathering group. But still....why? There are plenty of groups that meet regularly. It's unusual to plant a flag like that. Book clubs, bridge game meetups, regular pints with a friend group (that isn't a Stammtisch), Sunday brunch group, etc. None of these kinds of groups plant flags.
Book clubs and other discussion-focused groups that are open to new attendees often put up a "flag" so the new people can find the group in a public place. It's just not a literal flag, but some other kind of sign.
If the group's activity is easily visible and distinct from what everyone else is doing, it's not necessary.
> There are plenty of groups that meet regularly.
Stammtisch can be used like that, but it can also mean the physical table ("Tisch" means table) where a specific group meets. Meaning, in some pubs, a table marked as such is effectively reserved only for this specific group of regulars. I think this is getting rarer, but I still see it from time to time.
our linux user group puts up a penguin. since the meeting is always in the same pub, the penguin is left there on a shelf when not in use
But it does. It's simply German culture. I left another comment about the community and identity part that comes into this on another comment.
This was also a thing in Alsace (France), under the same name. However I only ever heard of it from my mother, as it is was a thing people did when she was young, but isn't a thing anymore since decades. Maybe in a few villages?
Given that control over Alsace was shared between Germany and France many times in history, it makes sense.
I believe it's still done, but it's mostly too old people. In big cities in Germany you will often seen youth that no longer do it.
I worked in Nuremberg for a while and was kindly invited along to the English Stammtisch which at the time was in different bars on a few nights throughout the month. Lots of English people but also lots of German folk who wanted to work on their English language skills. I made some good friends on those boozy nights and tons of fascinating conversations were had.
yes, it's true, the current state of social media is too toxic to interact with people. I don't want to interact with people who actively or encouraging the hates and spam contents.
Last year I wen't to fosdem alone, met up with some people who listen to the same podcasts... We had a great time!
You know when you are forced to socialize and you don't know what to talk about? Well, that doesn't happen when you are with a group of people who are all avid self-hosters, they all have cool setups and there is so much to learn.
It may feel weird, but it's so worth it to do this, even if you generally have a bad time in some bar while your normal (normie) friends are out socializing with the people around them.
every linux user group. wherever i go i look for them.
but boardgames work like that too. see my other comment.
When my wife and I lived in Canberra, we made friends with a few couples who met at alternate homes every Sunday night, almost without fail. I miss that so much. All I want to do is have dinner with the same group of people every week. We moved to Melbourne and then back to Brisbane, but we were never able to replicate that.
Around here the main culprits of spreading loneliness, esp. among men and women in their late 20s and later, are marriage and kids and the victims are those who didn't go for it, or didn't happen for them. Now, we can get into the deep debates of "you can be lonely in a family or among people" but let's keep that aside for some other day.
It must be a different geography/culture thing but if I want to deal with loneliness a bar or a pub is probably the last place I'd go looking for people to spend time with drunk. Hobbies, workshops, sports are the venues that work. For me letter writing seems to work - but very little. Met some friends and if they are from nearby cities or my own city then we kind of make time to meet et cetera. But it's not sustainable.
What this article lists is more like - there is already a group of friends who meet at a reserved table regularly. How does it even begin to work against loneliness? Loneliness IMHO is when you have no one to spend time with or they can't make time or you can't make time.
It comes down to this - you might want to figure out what kind of person you are early in life (as in mid 20s early) and what do you need in life in terms of company and possibly work on possible loneliness later in life - or plan against it - but that doesn't happen, does it? Also, at least in our generation's case, the social scene changed faster than one could cope and the COVID was almost like pulling the rug. Before and after were so different that felt unrecognisable. I have friends who loved the closed world of COVID and couldn't care less about the lack of people who give them their time and want their time, on the other hand there are people like me who are getting more miserable everyday for the lack of it and now wonder whether going for marriage probably would have been a better decision practically and realistically. Then you wonder maybe not.
My fight against it is by keeping very fit, resuming running, resuming reading (as in active reading otherwise it never stopped), get into cinema (again actively - join some film clubs/forums etc), multiple weekly sports (and one daily), and starting gym (which is part of keeping fit of course) et cetera. And the most important - I am still dealing with it - is fighting procrastination. The keeping fit part really helps, it might not seem so. But it does. It helps both physically and mentally.
Kids and marriage also make it practically impossible to not meet other people.
If someone did a study on loneliness vs fertility rates, it'd probably be a near perfect correlation.
The modern era of Tinder, normalised deviancy, and so on is really setting people up for a very uncomfortable later life. And I say 'later' but it's really the overwhelming majority of your life, especially if you discount your earlier years where we're all just basically retarded.
Don’t you already need to know the people before you are part of the Stammtisch?
That means you already aren’t lonely you just have a common spot in a pub with your friends - HIMYM vibes incoming.
> Don’t you already need to know the people before you are part of the Stammtisch?
You do. And the classical eponymous Stammtisch isn't really inviting to newcomers. I've spent time in German Wirtshäuser (but maybe it's more extreme in Bavaria) sitting at a table next to the Stammtisch alone but they would never invite you to their table.
It's just not how it works, at least in Bavaria. Usually the Stammtisch is an extremely tightly-knit group of locals that frown upon everything new. Somehow over many years you might earn your right to an invitation.
Also if you go to a Wirtshaus it is easy to spot the Stammtisch (the actual table - it always has a bell) and even if it is empty you may not just sit there without permission just like in some kind of religious ritual.
Of course everyone is free to use the term to their liking and you call a regular meeting in different locations a "Stammtisch" but that is not how it is traditionally.
Alone != lonely.
I’m getting from the article that you can get invited to these as well as keeping existing friendship going.
Last week I joined about 19 other guys who meet at 6am for a light exercise, sharing and coffee routine on a beach. It’s great. Just pitch when you can, instant network. It seems fundamentally there for mental health (combating loneliness and all the things that leads to), but so many other beneficial side effects. Recommend.
Surely it should be called national socialising?
Written like an alien trying to understand friendship
Literally go to your local and become a regular… tale as old as time
Same thing in Czechia, except the Stammgäste meet several times a week..
In Lyon, France, there are traditional “eating and drinking societies” called Francs-Mâchons. You can see them also in the Lyon episode of Parts Unknown with Tony Bourdain on YouTube.
I think there used to be a similar thing in Germany, the "Kulturverein". AFAIK, these were similar clubs about nothing particular (presumably, food and drinks were served when they met) - but these days, the few remaining ones are actually about promoting art and culture, it seems.
The Basque Country too, both in France and Spain. We call the 'txokos', in Spanish, sociedad gastronómica (no translation is needed).
Cool idea. Wonder how it could be adapted to include those who don't drink (already too many social events revolving around drinking IMO).
I agree. Bars around me also play loud music and/or have sports on TVs all the time, and quickly get too loud to have a coherent and comfortable conversation. Places quiet enough are not set up to have tables pushed together and a longer dwell time as people come in and out.
As a kid I joined my dad at a regular stammtisch that met at a Starbucks in the evening. That worked well, but I do think it would have benefited not just by having typical Starbucks drinks but also a few beers (giving the choice to the patrons).
As noted in the article, a coffee shop works well. But it can be tough to find a place where again it’s possible to pull a big table together. So many cafes now cater to laptop users plugging in for hours, but not necessarily for getting groups together who want to talk.
I'm part of a group that regularly meets at a pub and some only drink water. There's zero issue with that. The goal is not to get drunk: it's to have fun and discuss all together while enjoying two or three beer for those who like beer.
also my experience, when meeting with friends on austria i was often the only one who didn't drink alcohol. i can't remember a single time that anyone would notice or say anything about it.
I see the same at coffee shops / cafe's that have large tables in my area
Even in a small-ish city, the meanings of "drinks" and "drinking" can vary enormously, depending on the group of people.
I had a "burgers and beers" meal at a pub with some friends on Saturday. Our maximum alcohol consumption was 1 beer; minimum was 0. Several decades ago, I might have had a second beer. Maybe a dessert, too.
I heard about these decades ago when studying German in college. Always wondered how the bar/pub deals with these. Is there one stammtisch per establishment? Otherwise it seems like a place could be full of groups not "turning over tables" in the metaphorical sense.
This article really hits home. I've experienced the same struggle with loneliness in a new city. The idea of a structured social gathering, like a Stammtisch, makes a lot of sense. Maybe I should find a local group or even start one myself.
Nothing similar in Bangalore. Quelle suprise... Though we have something along the lines at work "Chai/Sutta par charcha"
I saw last night, in a French documentary, a middle aged man who lost 90% of his friends few months after he lost his job.
that's why it is important to make friends outside of work. and for friends at work i try to find common interests that are unrelated to work.
Coming from the UK to NA one of the big shocks of bars/pubs here is the near insistence on table service (and tipping). A major benefit of the UK and Irish setup is they are far more open mixer environments, for humans and dogs alike. This Stammtisch is classic NPR thinking a european solution exists while ignoring that it replicates the exact same cliquiness promoted by their over regulated environments.
It is very clear that younger generations are rejecting all of this anyway, partly due to reduced drinking, but seem to lack adequate substitutes. Several younger colleagues have flat out expressed the view that the idea any romantic couple ever met in a pub or bar is just Hollywood nonsense, and they were completely serious.
Ironically, the Stammtisch culture in Germany did not exactly help to counter the loneliness epidemic, if anything it softened the rise. People are lonely more than ever still.
The part about men finding a space to open up really resonated. There's something about the informal, no-pressure setup that allows vulnerability to feel natural, not forced
Many cultures have similar socially sanctioned practices;
Adda: The secret to Bengali conviviality - https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20210812-adda-the-secret-...
Did not expect to see this here, but spot on.
Apparently, there are even scholarly studies on this !
Friendship and Fraternity: The Cultural Nostalgia of Adda in Modern Bengal by Nabamita Das - https://internationalconference.net/program/detail/215
That's a nice thing to have. Although since marriage and especially child birth I usually need to fight for loneliness instead. Maybe I'll do it when I'm old, you know, alone.
I think you've hit on the solution for most people going forward: prioritise getting married and starting a family while you're young. Don't leave it to chance or assume it's impossible. It's not the burden that our culture is making it out to be whereas loneliness is a large and growing problem.
you want alone time but also time away from family, which can be filled by meeting others. i know it's not easy, but i would try at least once a month. also arrange the same for your partner.
you want friends that allow you to share and open up on problems that you face. as soon as you have your first fight you'll want some else to talk to.
a psychologist also told me that putting all your companionship needs on your partner can be burdensome. for example if i like to play board games and my wife doesn't then i better keep meeting others to play instead of giving up playing
Dumb American moment: I once visited Germany for a conference in Munich. My hotel was out in a rural town on the train line. One night my colleagues and I walked out the door for an adventure and into the first restaurant we found, a tiny little place.
We sat down at the Stammtisch.
The waitress kindly told us that we should move. Then everybody in the place was kind of cold to us, until someone picked up from our conversation that we were from the US. The waitress tentatively asked: "Are you Americans?" Yes. "Oh, we thought you were English." All of the sudden the whole place warmed up to us, and they even brought us complimentary glasses of the house liqueur, which I can tell you was quite potent.
I don't know why they liked Americans better than English, and we didn't press the matter.
Once in France, a bouncer wouldn't let me in a club because I wasn't dressed properly -- so I was waiting outside while my friend went inside to look for someone.
After about a minute the bouncer asked "English?".
I said "Well I speak english but I'm American, from Tennessee". He immediately smiled broadly and opened the door for me to enter.
The stereotypes are: English/British tourists are drunkard hooligans. American tourists are students or dumb rednecks but friendly.
Usually a couple Brits can't behave themselves at larger events (Oktoberfest, Euros) and make it into the news cycle - commonly paired with a backhanded comment like "The British underestimated the potency of German beer yet again".
There's also a large rivalry in soccer and balconing; combined with history and Brexit it really isn't a mystery.
> balconing
There is a depressing site, which keeps the ranking for Mallorca:
You forgot the most important one - !!! Beach Towel Wars !!!
Why does everybody thinks first this has something to do with your nationality? This is the Stammtisch. I'm from Germany and when I come with my little son to a restaurant we also can not sit there. Same right for all
You don’t know history, it’s been like that for centuries. It’s also something a cheeky English chap might do while on holiday in Germany. The history of that area of the world runs deep.
From what I understand from my European friends is that English vacationers have a bad reputation for getting belligerently drunk when on "holiday" that dates back many years.
Die britischen Nationalsportarten: Dartspiel, Ehebruch und Fußballrowdytum
> Fußballrowdytum
https://glosbe.com/en/de/football%20hooliganism
rowdytum:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/german-english/r...
rowdy:
english(-american) rowdy, origin unclear
"thug; hoodlum," first found in British newspaper police-court reports in the summer of 1898, almost certainly from the variant form of the Irish surname Houlihan, which figured as a characteristic comic Irish name in music hall songs and newspapers of the 1880s and '90s.
While in Europe, there's no extensive beefs with the Americans in sports like there are between football (soccer) fans from any two given countries in Europe.
It is not between soccer fans.
Many brits cannot behave when they are on vacation, mostly because of alcohol. Not all of them, but a significantly high portion of them compared to other countries. But german have similar reputation regarding being drunktards especially when in large groups.
Other nationalities may have their own reputations and clichés. Spanish people are loud, french people complain about everything and don't make a single effort to speak the local language, etc.
As always it is always about statistics and the biggest groups tend to have the more stereotypes and generalizations. But clichés often exist for a reason.
>Spanish people are loud
They dress loud, but AFAICT that's only a Spaniards in Berlin thing. They guy with the top hat, circus vest, short shorts and tights and golden wings on his sneakers, very likely Spanish.
Probably because of soccer..
I haven’t experienced this at all in Hamburg, in fact they’re kinda weirdly obsessed with (their idea of) England
hamburg is different. due to its harbor there is a long history of trading with england and other places, which i think has allowed the english and other foreigners to develop a different and in particular long standing reputation going back centuries, and also locals getting used to them, as opposed to elsewhere where foreigners only started showing up once tourism became more common.
maybe because of brexit. wouldn't justify it. just a wild guess
Not from Europe, but it reminds me of how Amsterdam has been actively discouraging young men from the UK from visiting because they have a reputation for being rowdy and getting in trouble.
I haven't been there in 20 years but I'm not surprised. Back then there was a tidal wave of drunk, loud men from the UK whenever they had a bank holiday.
My unsolicited advice to people wanting to visit the city has always been to not go during UK long weekends and if they're only looking for drugs and sex, that both can be sourced closer to home.
Huh? Why Brexit? Why would someone be upset with the British when they left the EU? Maybe one asks why, but angry or resentful? :))
Of course not. Free yourself from the media bubble.
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Say more?
I will leave the explanation to Jon Lojoie and his smash hit, Everyday Normal Guy 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmG4X9PGOXs
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People with friends, wives and children having to "fight loneliness". lol
Loneliness is longing for connection to other people.
Loneliness does not need to relate to the number of people you talk to or that you know.
In an era when humanity is more connected than ever in history, loneliness is decidedly a "you" problem unless you have some sort of medical condition that inhibits socializing.
Americans are more socially disconnected than ever in my lifetime, and I'm pretty old and have lived all over. There's a well-studied epidemic of loneliness and confusion. So perhaps you could refine your terms.
There is a difference between online interactions and in person interactions. There just is. I cannot be convinced otherwise.
I think it's the same and I cannot be convinced otherwise.
In what world are you living in where humanity is connected? If anything, technology has only driven us further apart. Those mission statements from social media companies are nothing but empty platitudes.
Modern parenting in a nuclear family is a profoundly lonely experience.
The loneliest I’ve ever been was as a new parent with an abusive and distant spouse. I went years without any positive interactions or connection with another adult.